I've been getting a lot of comments recently in response to my post about Leadership Team Development, Quixtar, Amway, and Greed. I've got a few additional thoughts I'd like to share real quickly:

1. If you're considering responding, please use the Scriptures in your response. My concern is with peoples' souls, and how involvement in the organization affects their relationship with Christ. My standard for living is God's Word. I am not interested so much with what man has to say, but with what God reveals to us in His Word.
2. Consider Proverbs 30:8-9: "Remove falsehood and lies far from me; / Give me neither poverty nor riches / Feed me with the food allotted to me; / 9 Lest I be full and deny You, / And say, "Who is the LORD?" / Or lest I be poor and steal, And profane the name of my God."

I just want to know why you hide your face. Anyone who has a website with an "about me" section puts a picture of them there. that way people can see their eyes. The gateway to their soul. just curious. Sorry no scripture to go with this comment.

Erich,
Sorry that I did not read 100% of all posts, but I must go to bed before 3 AM, so I just wanted to post something before leaving the site and forgetting. I enjoyed the conversation with JJ. Sorry about some ignorant responses you received from some people, and especially for your experience with "LTD members" in the past. I put that in quotes, because anyone can sign up, but there's a big difference between signing up and showing up.
I know when someone's parents think a certain way, it's difficult not to believe the same way. You spend a great deal of your life inputting (is that a word?) their words into your mind, so it's only natural that you would take the same side.
I too am an LTD member, and have been for the past 2 years. I know you don't know me, so you have absolutely no reason to listen to what I have to say.
I grew up as a missionary kid in Quito, Ecuador. I went to a missionary school, and was taught the Bible my entire life. After graduating, I went to Moody Bible Institute and received a degree in Bible/Music. At this moment, I am married, have 2 wonderful boys, and am the worship leader at my church. I'm not saying this to try to boost myself up, but just to let you know that I'm not just some guy that got "duped" into joining some organization. When I started my business, the hardest thing for me was people talking about money. That was also the hardest thing for my wife. Everything else was great. The people were so positive, the atmosphere was great, the leadership was a group of people that I could really look up to as strong spiritual leaders. I didn't have contact with any of the "big guys," other than through CD's, but what I knew was that I was among the real deal. I found something that I have never found in any church or mission organization, and that I have never seen in any business. I found people who had real convictions, and who stood by them no matter what. I found people who knew what they believed and couldn't care less about just pleasing people. They did what they did because it was the real them. It was what they knew was their calling. And they did it for the right reasons.
But here's the thing: it was a business. And it is a business. Quixtar/Amway (Yes, that's no secret) has certain regulations, but basically they let people be independent and run their businesses the way they want to. Even LTD, when they have a non-denominational Christian, optional church service, also pays to have rooms available for people of other faiths to meet in.
I can't give an exhaustive list, but here are some of the character traits of the LTD leaders, and what they actually teach (and follow) as a part of their business:

1. Men do not associate with married women without their husbands present. If a man calls another man and the wife answers, be polite, ask how she's doing, and ask for her husband. Do not carry on a long conversation. Do not even allow the appearance of anything remotely resembling anything inappropriate.
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

2. Serve others, regardless of whether it looks like you may receive a benefit. But also realize that when you sow, you reap.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

3. Take hold of what you have in Christ! We have Christ in us, and therefore we have at our disposal His power to do what He has ordained for us to do.
Eph 3:20 Now all glory to God, who is able, through His mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think.
2 Tim 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love, and of self-discipline.
Mt 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
3 Jn 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

I could list so many more.

This is the main reason I love this team and the reason I am writing this: it is the only place that I have seen God's will truly being done in a right, pure manner, without any of the stuff going on behind the scenes that happens so often. Christ told us to go make disciples (Mt 28), and this is the only place that I really see it being done. I've seen lots of people get saved throughout my life, but I've also seen a lot turn away. LTD is focused on healing the WHOLE man, and creating an atmosphere and system where true prosperity is taught and encouraged (and monetary gain just happens to be one area of prosperity). I have seen people's lives (including mine, even though I already had an excellent foundation) completely changed for the better. I've seen people find their true calling. I've seen people go from being self-serving and not really knowing what in the world they're doing here (Christian or not), to becoming powerful tools in the Kingdom. I've seen relationships restored, marriages restored, dreams and hope rekindled.

John Eldredge wrote a book called "Waking the Dead." In it he writes a powerful statement: "The glory of God is man fully alive." Christ came to give us exceedingly abundant life! Yet we have become satisfied with just getting by. God has so much in store for us, yet many times we miss it because we don't believe it.

Just tonight, I returned from an optional "meeting after the meeting after the meeting." I listened to a guy talk about Peter walking on the water, and how his getting out of the boat was an example of extreme discipleship and obedience. He used the boat as an analogy of whatever is keeping us from our calling. The boat resembles those things that keep us comfortable outside of our calling. We have to get out of our comfort zone in order to step into that calling. People usually teach on fear when they teach this passage, and, while that can be a message, the true message is obedience! This was extreme obedience! We think he failed because he sank, but at least he left the boat. The others sat there and watched. His final point was that, when you get out of the boat, 2 things may happen: You may fail (but Jesus will be there to pick you up), but every once in a while you will walk on the water.

This is my question to you: Have you seen a group of people that has the above standards, and that actually follows them? Have you been involved in a group of people that is actually discipling people, and creating an atmosphere of discipleship that creates a craving to move on and become better?

This team is real, and they are above reproach. If you really do your research, and get to know some of the real people on the team, you'll see that what I'm saying is true. Even now, as you read this, your heart is telling you that the words are true, because you and I both have the Spirit. Please, if nothing else, don't hinder what God is doing through LTD. Remember what Paul said about the people who were preaching the Gospel in a way that would harm him? He said he didn't care, because whatever the case, and whatever the motives, the Gospel was being preached. So even if you don't believe what I'm writing, the Gospel IS being preached, people ARE coming to Christ, and people's lives ARE radically changing as they are discipled through the system of mentorship that LTD has set up.

This is a business that is built with people. Since we are all independent, we are allowed to build the business as we choose (to a certain extent, as allowed by Quixtar/Amway). As with anything else, if you listen to the people who failed, you will get bad advice. It's just an opinion. But if you listen to the people who have succeeded, you get good advice.

Sorry this was a lot longer than I intended. My heart is so full. I love this team so much. I know you are only writing these things in ignorance, because you don't know the team. I just hate seeing the team I love being torn down or hampered in any way. I hope I have helped you or someone else who may be reading this.

May God bless you exceedingly abundantly, beyond anything you might ask or think...

Your Brother in Christ,

-Tim

Tim -

Thanks for taking the time to write me on the topic of LTD. I forgive you for not reading all the posts, but it sounds like you got through a good number of them if you read the majority of my conversation with JJ. He and I have actually continued to correspond via e-mail because when he went to post a response to my last set of questions, the blog software I'm using had an issue which I have since resolved.

I appreciate the fact that you shared some passages from the Bible. Some people require a little more prodding before they'll share something from the Scriptures. One thing I find interesting is that someone told me LTD and Quixtar aren't officially Christian organizations. I suppose your comment about their provision of meeting rooms for people of many faiths supports that. However, the majority, if not the entirety of people who have written me have claimed to be a Christian. Perhaps, though, the nature of my post lends itself more to that sort of response.

Before I start with asking questions, I'll answer yours:

You asked, "Have you seen a group of people that has the above standards, and that actually follows them? Have you been involved in a group of people that is actually discipling people, and creating an atmosphere of discipleship that creates a craving to move on and become better?"

Yes, I have. At my church. It sounded from your comments that your experience has been different, and that is unfortunate. Because the church is where we should find the sort of discipleship you've described.

A few questions / comments for you:

1. In the two years that you've had your LTD business, how much money (or a percentage) have you saved in your family budget by buying products in the network?
2. You commented, "if you listen to the people who failed, you will get bad advice." Doesn't the best advice available, though, often come from someone who has failed, because they can identify where they went wrong; they can share how they've learned from their experience?
3. On the topic of failing, there seems to be a common suggestion that those who failed simply didn't have enough motivation, or didn't try hard enough. Would you say that is true of ALL of the 60% that leave the organization annually?
4. I highlighted the fact earlier that you mentioned LTD "also pays to have rooms available for people of other faiths to meet in." Isn't this counter to the spread of the Gospel? Again, I know LTD/Quixtar isn't officially "Christian," but once someone "bites the carrot" and joins the organization because of the potential for monetary gain, the likelihood that they find Christ amidst all the religious ambiguity seems somewhat low.
5. What is the relationship between spiritual prosperity and financial prosperity?
6. You commented, "Even now, as you read this, your heart is telling you that the words are true, because you and I both have the Spirit." Does having the spirit guarantee that we always pursue, recognize, or acknowledge the truth?

Thanks again for writing!

- Erich

I would just like to say that I appreciate that there are so many people out there who genuinely care about spiritual purity. This is precisely why I personally choose to be "non-denominational" and I never use God as a reason for anyone to go into business. I feel people should live for God and serving God is done through every action we take with Him in our hearts. I personally feel God gave man intellect, a conscience, and a heart. Through Him, as we use these gifts, we are serving Him. I do not follow any man on earth for man cannot be trusted. I feel a true connection to God with every step I take in my life and I know He has helped me through every step of my life and He loves me. What I would like to say about every comment on this website is that I appreciate everyone's desire to serve God and the passion and love behind which drives every passionate opinion. Debate and communication are what breed understanding and growth. To understand, love, and appreciate everyone's opinion and try to serve God in every action and every step is a life well lived and worth living. As long as passion is not taken to the extreme and communication is open, the path to understanding is within everyone's reach. Thank you and sincerely, just another anonymous person and coincidently another IBO and LTD member and nurse and student and neighbor

Erich-

I'm sorry you have the opinions that you have of Our Team. I suppose that if you would have stayed with the Team for a bit longer, you'll realize that it's not greed, fame, or anything of the sort.

I'm a Christian, Southern Baptist through and through, and like you said, that doesn't mean I -can't- make money.

And LTD has provided a great avenue for that; if you don't seize the oppurtunity, that's not The Team's Fault.

LTD: One Message, One Mission, One Method.

"Yes, I have. At my church. It sounded from your comments that your experience has been different, and that is unfortunate. Because the church is where we should find the sort of discipleship you've described"

Erich,
What is your definition of a church? Cause last I checked, the Bible says in Matthew 18:20

KJV: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

NIV: For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

NLV: For where two or three gather together as my followers,[a] I am there among them


Not sure which verion of the Bible you read, but there's a couple to choose from.



You know, I think that you all should stop hiding behind "friendly debate". Clearly this has gone far beyond that. I personally think that it is God's place to judge and no one else's. So, Erich, if these folks are wrong for being involved in LTD, then God will handle it. Same with the other view. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But trying to insult one another to find out who is smarter, or knows more Scripture, or is a better "Christian" is just a waste of time. Some people come on these forums to hear MULTIPLE opinions, not two or three folks trying to defend their egos.

Hello Erich,

I stumbled across your site and after reading it I am really offended and hurt by your view. First of all you are being very judgmental for not even knowing these guys personally which I have been directly impacted in a positive way which if your want to bring Christ into this then it has been a blessing too. Yes the business works enough said. The next topic really is about LTD as a group and the LTD fellowship. This group is not say a Christian organization, but yes filled with many people who honestly there walk in the Christian Faith is much higher that many of the people at my home Church and I have a great church probably like you do. This LTD team outside of business is about impacting people in a positive way thru leadership and mentorship. They really are so many ways to go about ministry in this world and if it was all to be your way then the job just might not get done. I personally was greedy SOB and a jerk that you personally on your soap box could never dragged me to a church because of people I saw that were hypocrites and judgmental. I saw the LTD plan and started associating with these people who over time melted my heart and with there walk which yes lead me to the Lord. Not the business but the fellowship. Which at my Job would have been over the line by the way. I have a modest business. I am not a millionaire and not claiming or want to be one. However if it was not for the LTD outreach and business. It scares me to wonder what Bar or Women I might hurt even more. I ask you please take down your site. Let people thru there own experience judge for themselves. Your public display really if anything is like wearing a black robe. I pray that you realized that posting here is really a conflict to your walk in Christ. Jesus does some many great things thru relationship. I could go on and on about all that is a blessing with this group but if your heart is chained up in judgment you might miss many other blessing in you life. LTD and the Leadership Team Development Group is Awesome

jl -

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I'd be interested in hearing how your reflection on The Cross plays into the way you run your LTD business?

- Erich

Jami -

A few thoughts in response to what you've said here ...

Can you point out to me where I have contradicted what you believe to be a Scriptural understanding of the church? I believe I used the term in two different ways , both of which are consistent with the Bible. Perhaps the clearest distinction we could make is between the universal church, that is the conglomeration of all believers throughout the world, and the local church, which consists of believers who all live in the same region and meet together on a regular basis.

You are right that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but we need to be careful not to embrace the relativism our culture has adopted. There is one Way, one Truth, and one Life, and we are to have no other gods before Him. Not money, power, fame, sex, work, pleasure, entertainment, friends, or anything else this world has to offer.

In one of the comments on my original article, I commented that my point in writing the original article about LTD, Amway, and Quixtar is not so much to speak poorly of the organization but to challenge anyone reading to love Christ more. To see to it that he does not love the world, nor the things of the world. To warn of the dangers of loving money that Paul describes to Timothy: "But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition." (1 Timothy 6:8).

The following quote is from an essay titled "Christ's Greatest Trophy" by J.C. Ryle. I read it a few months ago and whenever I look back on it, it challenges my thinking. I so often am focused on the here and now and lose sight of Him whom I am seeking to serve, of Him who died for my sins, of Him whom I will worship and with whom I will live for eternity. This was a good reminder of what it's really about (emphasis added):

I cannot describe what kind of place paradise is, because I cannot understand the condition of a soul separate from the body. But I ask no brighter view of paradise than this—that Christ is there. All other things, in the picture which imagination draws of the state between death and resurrection, are nothing in comparison of this. How He is there, and in what way He is there, I know not. Let me only see Christ in paradise when my eyes close in death, and that suffices me. Well does the psalmist say, 'In Your presence is fullness of joy' (Ps. 16:11). It was a true saying of a dying girl, when her mother tried to comfort her by describing what paradise would be. 'There,' she said to the child, 'there you will have no pains, and no sickness; there you will see your brothers and sisters, who have gone before you, and will be always happy.' 'Ah, mother,' was the reply, 'but there is one thing better than all, and that is, Christ will be there!'

It may be you do not think much about your soul. It may be you know little of Christ as your Savior. and have never tasted by experience that He is precious. And yet perhaps you hope to go to paradise when you die. Surely this passage is one that should make you think. Paradise is a place where Christ is. Then can it be a place that you would enjoy?

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

13Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy.

Chris -

Thanks for your comments!

I actually was never a member of LTD. Rather, my dad was an Amway distributor and I've been asked to join LTD by several members in the past several months.

Regarding greed among Amway IBOs ... I can't speak for everyone, but I can share with you what my dad said about his involvement in the business:

On his web site, my dad writes about leaving Amway, saying, "In the process of greedily building my own dream - my own idol, a friend confronted me with Jesus Christ, the only Son of the God Who created and sustains the universe. He broke my greedy, clutching fingers; He opened my hands to release me from the bars of a dark imprisonment; and I began to receive all that God has for me. I died to myself, and came to life with the life of Christ."

You concluded your comments with, "LTD: One Message, One Mission, One Method."

What is LTD's one message, mission, and method, and how does that align with and reflect the Cross?

- Erich

Brad -

I'm glad to hear that your life is better as a result of your involvement in LTD!

I'd be interested in hearing how your reflection on the Cross plays into the way you run your LTD business.

- Erich

To all who have taken the time to comment -

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. It's been interesting to discuss all sorts of aspects of this topic, but I simply don't have the time to keep up with these discussions. You each have only one person to write to (me), whereas I am singlehandedly trying to respond adequately to all who write. In the past day alone, I've received 3 or 4 messages, both on here and via e-mail.

So, if I asked a question on here that you wanted to have a chance to answer, shoot me an email through my contact page and I will read it and respond if I have time.

One final comment ... my other reason for closing comments is that I felt that the same ideas were being reiterated repeatedly. New people would join the discussion, not having read the existing discussion, and I was finding myself doing a lot of copy-and-pasting. If you were hoping to put in your two cents, I'd recommend reading through the entire discussion because it is likely that someone else said something similar and I already replied to it.

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